
Flower in the River: A Family Tale Finally Told
"Flower in the River" podcast, inspired by my book of the same name, explores the 1915 Eastland Disaster in Chicago and its enduring impact, particularly on my family's history. We'll explore the intertwining narratives of others impacted by this tragedy as well, and we'll dive into writing and genealogy and uncover the surprising supernatural elements that surface in family history research. Come along with me on this journey of discovery.
Flower in the River: A Family Tale Finally Told
Legacy of the Lost: Uncovering the Eastland's Hidden Stories
Episode 38 of Flower in the River Podcast is dedicated to Donna Loren and Dr. Adam Gerace from "Love's a Secret Weapon" podcast. It’s not often that you can go on a podcast with a film star and singer that you’ve admired since you were a child--but that happened! Last month, multitalented film icon and vocal powerhouse, Donna Loren and Dr. Adam Gerace invited me to discuss my book on their podcast. I still can't believe this happened but here's the link to "The Ancestors Who Guide Us: Donna and Dr Adam In Conversation with Natalie Zett" - Ep. 75 of "Love's a Secret Weapon."
**Trigger Warning: This week's journey takes us back to 1915's Eastland Disaster, a heart-wrenching event in Chicago's history. As we unfold tales from old newspapers, expect a raw and emotional exploration involving the loss of entire families, including children. Listener discretion is advised for this deeply moving episode.**
Main Discussion: Voices from the Depths of History
- A Family's Tragedy: We begin with Otto Brandt and his sister Mary Braitsch, engulfed in a nightmare where Mary lost her husband and all five children. The story's layers unravel, revealing Mary's life post-tragedy.
- Robert Magnuson's Heartache: From the pages of history, we meet Robert Magnuson, who faced the unimaginable loss of his wife and two children, Robert Jr. and Irene. His journey post-disaster uncovers the resilience of the human spirit.
- The Storytellers of the Tragedy: Step into the shoes of journalist Richard Henry Little and political cartoonist John Tinney McCutcheon. Discover how their words and images shaped public perception of this calamity.
- Behind the Scenes with Natalie: I'll peel back the layers of my research process, revealing how I piece together these poignant character sketches from the fragments of history preserved in records and old newspapers.
Summary: A Tribute to Resilience and Remembrance
This episode was an emotional and challenging endeavor, taking us through the unfiltered corridors of the past. It's a deep dive into the resilience of the human spirit, contrasting past and present perspectives on grief and loss. Join me in this poignant tribute to honor the 844 lives swept away by the Eastland Disaster. Together, we step back in time – to remember, to learn, and to ensure that these stories are never forgotten.
Links
- Love's a Secret Weapon podcast, "The Ancestors Who Guide Us: Donna and Dr Adam In Conversation with Natalie Zett"
- Stories of Robert Magnuson, Mary Braitisch, Richard Henry Little, John T. McCutcheon and more.
Music by Laurel Violet (Artl
- Book website: https://www.flowerintheriver.com/
- LinkTree: @zettnatalie | Linktree
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalie-z-87092b15/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/zettnatalie/
- YouTube: Flower in the River - A Family Tale Finally Told - YouTube
- Medium: Natalie Zett – Medium
- The opening/closing song is Twilight by 8opus
- Other music. Artlist
Why Hello, I'm Natalie Zett and welcome to Flower in the River. Flower in the River is a podcast about a book I wrote of the same name, and that book is about the Eastland disaster that took place in 1915 in Chicago and how that long ago tragedy affected my family for generations. I'll talk about writing and family history and what you do when the supernatural comes into your life, when you're innocently doing a family history research project. Come on and let's have some fun with this. So before I dive into this week's episode, I want to pause and I want to dedicate it to Donna Loren and Dr Adam , who invited me last month to be a guest on their podcast Love's a Secret Weapon.
Natalie Zett:And if the name Donna Loren sounds kind of familiar, but you can't place her, you probably know at one point the 60s was going on right, and there were so many exciting, vibrant performers who came out of that era and Donna Loren is one of those and she still is spectacular. She was one of the younger kids who was part of the beach movies and she was the Dr Pepper girl and she was on all kinds of TV series, and Donna just kept reinventing herself and her life and using the many gifts that she was given to the benefit of the world. A few years ago, she started doing a podcast about her book Love's a Secret Weapon, and I was so taken with her podcast and taken with her vulnerability, and she's the reason that I decided to do a podcast about my book, because I thought, why not? There's something about people who are really great I mean not in the sense of celebrity, but in the sense of just their own internal greatness, generosity, gratitude, the way they live their life and she's one of those. And when I first heard her read from her book, I think a couple of years ago, I could not believe all the things that she went through, all the things that were going on behind the scenes. You would have never guessed it based on the persona that came through the TV or the big screen, and I often wonder how do people survive their lives when they go through so much? What she did and she also has a gift of transmitting that vibe of you can do this too. Again, her generosity and love just come through, and love is a secret weapon. She means that, and so I wrote to her and thanked her.
Natalie Zett:And then, the next thing I know, I had an invitation to be on their show. Dr Adam co-hosts with her and he also has the same welcoming kindness. He has an incredible mind and a gift at distilling what is going on in terms of the conversation. So gratitude for Dr Adam as well. They are a dynamic duo and it was an honor, a privilege. I should say. It was a shock to be invited on their show and what I didn't realize until Donna sent me a note last night and letting me know that the show was live. I didn't know the whole episode would be about our conversation and, as usual, if you've listened to me for any length of time, you know I don't have much of an edit button. I just say what I think at the top of my head, and so this conversation was as well. But they were truly those old friends that I'd never met. So I will put a link to their podcast as well in my show notes, because it meant a lot to me. Thank you, donna Lauren, thank you, Dr Adam . Love you guys and thank you again for the privilege of sharing that time with you.
Natalie Zett:So this is the first general trigger warning about this episode. I'm going to be reading from the publications of that time of 1915, and the writers, for the most part, don't hold anything back. And, of course, since it's about a disaster, and this disaster entails a lot of loss, some graphic details will be included, and I don't want you to listen. If it's going to cause problems for you, don't feel bad. It's actually one of the more difficult episodes that I've had to get through as well, and so I can imagine if you're not prepared to hear what's about to be revealed, you're going to be shocked. So I don't want that. So turn it off and come back another time. We'll be here for you. Hello there, this is Natalie, and welcome to episode 38 of Flower in the River podcast.
Natalie Zett:I am going to jump right into it again today because, as usual, there's a lot to talk about. I am going to not read from my book, even though the chapter sketching an unlived life seems to be kind of the catch-all phrase for what is going on here. I'm going to talk about some more lives of people who were affected by the Eastland disaster. I'm going to introduce you to a family that's profiled twice in a couple of different publications from that time period, and there's some mention of other families too in these sagas that come from newspapers of 1915. And they're really fascinating, and so I'll talk about that.
Natalie Zett:I'm going to talk about the process that I'm using to create these character sketches that I have been sharing with you. These are not full-blown biographies, these are just character sketches and they are based on information that I have found that is publicly available. Now, the challenge of doing these Eastland Chronicles, as I called them, is that the information is out there about all kinds of survivors and victims and witnesses of the Eastland disaster, but for the most part, it's not in one place. You might get some high level name, date of birth, date of death, burial information in one source, and then other things, such as newspapers from that time, have other bits of information, obituaries or other places that I go to. So the process that I go through in order to do this is I start hunting and I enjoy doing this, and so the main source for my information is coming from these old publications. But what I also do is I look to other records, such as census, such as draft registration records, such as immigration records, to plot out a more of a character sketch for these people as to what happened to them before, during and after the Eastland disaster. If that's at all possible to find and mostly it is and if I can't find something, I'll tell you that the thing that I try to do is just allow them to present their lives in their own way by the records that they left behind, or the records that have been left behind about them, and I'm choosing to share stories of people that don't seem to have any family trees or very little family tree information on places such as familysearchorg or ancestrycom. So I want to help fill in the gaps of these particular lives. But, by the same token, this is publicly available information, trying to put it together responsibly. But I want to, as much as possible, take random samples from different populations that were part of Chicago during that time and share their stories, just so you and I get a bigger, broader, more complete, more engaging feel for Chicago of that time. And I'm going to read to you two newspapers from that time and number one.
Natalie Zett:I want to, right in the middle of this, give you a trigger warning. These stories are extremely sad. They are about losses of families, with maybe one or two people left from each family, and those stories are. They're horrible, okay, but what's even more poignant about these stories is that they involve the loss of children and babies. That's what I wanted to warn you about. So if that's going to be difficult for you, please don't listen. We lost a baby in our family as well. It was many years ago, but that is something that stays with you for the rest of your life and it stayed with our family for the rest of our lives.
Natalie Zett:So I'm very cognizant of that, very aware of that, so, and I want you to be aware of that as well so don't listen, that's going to be too much, because I'll tell you, when I was was reading these accounts, it, it got to my heart. I still want to honor these people and I still want to, in a sense, be with them, share their story, and it creates a bridge between me and them. It's like I understand in a very small way what they might have been feeling. I don't even pretend to understand or to be able to feel the enormity of what they went through. It's, it's just, it's beyond heartbreaking. It really is, and so I will read to you from these two publications and I'll give you a little background about some of the things I did locate online to provide a little more context for these accounts that you're about to hear Again. Remember, they are written in the language of their time. It's a little stilted, I think, to our ears. But then there's other places where they go. There they just tell you, you know, what was happening, and it is kind of depending on the writing style. They're both really good writers who conveyed these stories. They're very good and they take you there emotionally.
Natalie Zett:Afterward I'll talk to you about the research that I did on the survivors of these respective families and to let you know what happened to each of them, because that's interesting as well. I'll talk a little bit about one of the journalists and share a little bit about his very fascinating life. This is the thing I can relate to fairly closely because I've been a journalist much of my life and, fortunately, I've never covered anything as awful as the Eastland disaster. Myself was pretty tame compared to that. But there still is the immediacy of going out on the street and talking to people and getting them to talk to you and observing them and, as always, letting the subjects speak, not editorializing, not overstepping boundaries, and making sure that each person's individuality, each person's dignity, is honored. I am a stickler for that. I always try to do that, and the other thing that you're going to notice when you listen to these articles is how women were perceived then, how grief was perceived then, how certain ethnic communities' expressions of grief was perceived.
Natalie Zett:It's very interesting, and I'm all for not sanitizing these types of records simply because it informed what was then and what was then often goes forward and informs what happens in later years or generations. So history is really important, and I'm all for even keeping the uncomfortable, politically incorrect details in because that's how people thought, and cleaning it up. I'm not sure what purpose that serves. Maybe somebody can tell me what purpose that serves, but I think looking at something for what it was back then is most instructive, and so that's what's going to be in these accounts as well. So let's get started with these newspapers. I'll read two of them for you, and the main characters that are profiled in these stories are Otto Brant, his sister, mrs Mary Breach and her family, and then there's another person called Robert Magnussen, who's mentioned in the second article, and his story is also shared, because he too, lost his family. Then there is an unnamed woman who lost a child as well. So that's what is going to be in these stories. So let's get started.
Natalie Zett:I'm about to read from the Champagne County News. The date is Wednesday, july 28, 1915. Again, this is four days after the Eastland disaster. The headline for this page reads Over 1,000 persons perish in Chicago River. We know that it was 844, but at the time this is the information they had. And there's one main headline and several sub-headlines for this article. The article is written by Richard Henry Little, who has quite a storied career as well as a journalist. The main headline for this article reads Fears to tell sister truth. Second headline is Brother breaks down while guarding bodies of her four children, talking about his sister's children. Fifth child still missing is the third headline and fourth headline. Relatives of Eastland dead hide emotions as they keep up ceaseless search for kin Haunt morgue for news, chicago, july 26.
Natalie Zett:Otto Brant is a big, strong man, but yesterday afternoon he was the most pathetic figure I have ever seen. He stood guard over five silent forms lying on the floor of the Second Regiment Armory. I've got to go home and tell her, moaned Brant, the tears streaming down his face. She sent me down this morning with these words. I know that at least one of my babies must be alive. God would not take everything from me. You must come back and tell me that at least one has been spared. He does not need all. He would leave me one. I know you must bring one of them back alive with you tonight.
Natalie Zett:The woman who sent Otto Brandt down to bring back at least one of her babies was Mrs Mary Braitsch of Congress Park. Brant is her brother, headline all among the dead. But on the floor at Brandt's feet lay John Braitsch, his sister's husband, and beside John Breach lay nine-year-old Frederick, 12-year-old Gertrude, little Anne, seven years old, and Marie, only six months old. The body of Rose, four years old, has not yet been found. Mrs Breach and her family were together when the Eastland turned over. She had baby Marie in her arms. When she was thrown into the water in trying to catch at something, the baby slipped from her arms. She was taken home yesterday morning in a hysterical condition but still hoping against hope. I found the bodies here this morning and had them brought together set. Otto Brandt I should have gone home long ago, but I cannot tell her that all have gone. Headline: Haunt Armory for News.
Natalie Zett:All day yesterday the never-ending procession of those hunting for their dead passed in and out of the armory. At six o'clock in the evening only 75 bodies remained unclaimed, but other bodies, continually, were being brought in from the scene of the tragedy as fast as they were brought up by the divers. So many must still wait and repeat the awful pilgrimage again and again. More than 150 cases were handled by the emergency hospital, but Dr Stringfield in charge said that these were almost without exception women who merely were morbidly curious. Those who had really lost husband or children in the disaster did not give way to their emotions, except sometimes by little heartbroken sobs. Headline Keep Calm Despite Agony. Most of the relatives are Bohemian or Polish who, no matter how great their agony, will remain white-faced, hollow-eyed but calm before strangers.
Natalie Zett:One woman found her little boy in the long line of the dead. She had made a dozen vain trips Saturday night and yesterday through the improvised morgue, but as she was again passing through the afternoon and was about to leave, four policemen entered carrying on a stretcher, the body of a child of nine with long flaxen curls. Gangway there, shouted one of the policemen. The woman never moved, but when the policeman, in a monotonous, tired tone, repeated the call Gangway, she merely said my boy. Another policeman stepped up and took her name and address and she went quietly away. For God, she certainly has got the nerve, said. A policeman Goes away to weep alone is the next heading. The woman walked out of the armory and down the street but suddenly turned into a stairway and burst into sobs that would have melted a heart of stone. Women gave up their places in the long waiting line to go to her, but a policeman motioned them back. Leave her alone. He said she wanted to get some place where no one could see her so she could cry.
Natalie Zett:That's the end of the article from the Champaign Daily News, Wednesday, July 28, 1915. And here's another article that also discusses the Brandt and Mary Breach family that you just met from a different point of view. So this is from the Chicago Day Book. Date is July 26, 1915. The Silent Grief of Bereaved at Morgue Shatters Nerves of Attendance. There's no author to this article, by the way, and I'll begin reading.
Natalie Zett:Morbid Curiosity Seekers who forced their way into the emergency morgue in the Second Regiment Armory yesterday were cheated of one thrill they had anticipated there was little wailing grief, almost monotonously, women and men who had hoped against hope, and begged of God that their hearts might be spared. The breaking, recognized their dead with just the dying out in their eyes of the spark that had lingered there and the hopeless settling of grief's mask. Sometimes there was a gasp, sometimes one little convulsive cry that drowned in the shuffling of hundreds of feet, sometimes just tears that ran unchecked, without any audible sound from lips that were quivering. But to the workers at the armory, the nurses who bathe dead faces that they might not look so ghastly as they lay row after row, the hopeless grief tore at their nerves until they moved about, scarcely conscious of feeling at all. There were 728 bodies in the morgue, but as fast as identification was made they were moved away rapidly. Until six o'clock there were less than 50.
Natalie Zett:Robert Magnuson, 3809 Wrightwood Avenue, was on the eastland with his wife, his little son Robert and his daughter Irene. When the boat capsized he became separated from his family and was lifted to safety himself. Yesterday, in the temporary morgue he found his wife in the first row of the dead. He sobbed convulsively and went on again. In another row was Robert. He staggered and the big tears splashed down his cheeks. But he turned away and went on, and in the last row lay his little daughter Irene. He stumbled across the hall to Deputy Coroner Davis and asked that the bodies of his three loved ones should be placed side by side, and then he knelt beside the three and prayed.
Natalie Zett:Mrs Mary Breach, congress Park, was on the eastland with her husband and her four children, Frederick IX, Gertrude XII, rose IV, Annie VII and Marie only six months. She had her baby in her arms when the boat capsized, but she lost her hold on it in the water. When she was saved she hysterically insisted that God must have left her at least one of her loved ones, and she sent her brother Otto Brant to the morgue with the demand that he return to tell her all of her children were not dead. John Breach, the husband, Frederick, Gertrude, Annie and Marie were all lying side by side yesterday and Rose had not yet been found. In one corner the work of embalming was carried on behind canvas that it might not be seen by the mourning relatives. A photographer steadily took pictures of the dead so that they might be identified when they are no longer in condition to be shown in public identification. Undertaker's assistants passed in and out of the side door taking away the identified dead. The telephone bells jangled and the man with the megaphone on the balcony shouted for people wanted on the telephone, while policemen cried monotonously gangway as the bodies were removed and through it all wound, the constant stream of those who searched for their dead. End of article.
Natalie Zett:Here's a follow-up to the stories of the families and the individuals that were mentioned in this episode. Mary Breach, you remember her. She lost her husband and her five children. So a little bit about her. Her census records say that she was from Germany and she was living in New York. But she married John around 1898. And it looks like they resided mostly in New Jersey, but possibly in New York as well. And eventually they moved to Chicago, somewhere between 1910 and 1915. And probably because John got work at Western Electric and of course you know what happened in 1915. And right after the Eastland disaster this is an interesting story Mary returned with the bodies of her family to New Jersey.
Natalie Zett:I'm going to read an article that was on the front page of the Chicago Tribune, tuesday, july 27th 1915. Again, that's three days after the Eastland disaster, and the headline is relatives to be paid $500,000 insurance. Red tape is cut by risk companies in making prompt payments and I'm reading the last paragraph here One beneficiary who received her insurance at a time when it counted was Mrs John Breach of 224 Arthur Avenue Congress Park, where she lost her husband and five children. Because of the prompt payment of a policy of $2,000, she will be able to leave for New Jersey at once with the bodies for burial. And she did leave and it looks as if she stayed in New Jersey. It looks as if she never returned to Chicago.
Natalie Zett:Mary remarried in 1917 and the man's name was William Goulard and Mary died on the 25th of March 1955, in Stratford, connecticut. Here's her obit Goulard. Mary A Knee Brandt on March 23, 1955, of Stratford, connecticut, formerly of Jersey City. Beloved wife of the late William T, devoted mother of William P. Relatives and friends are invited to attend funeral services at William Schlem Incorporated Funeral Home, bergen and Harrison Avenues, saturday 11.30 am in Turmett Bayview Cemetery. Bayview Cemetery is also in New Jersey, but her first husband and the five children are buried in Holy Name Cemetery in Mausoleum in Jersey City, which is in Hudson County, New Jersey.
Natalie Zett:Again, don't know the circumstances, but the most interesting thing to note is that the mention of her first family is not in the obituary and the mention of her surviving the Eastland disaster is not in the obituary, so unless someone is searching and goes here, you would never know. So, talking about how history gets lost or obscured, this is what happens. And again, no judgment on my part, because it's 1955, that was a while ago and again, the way people approached tragedies was different than it is now. Back then certain things were not discussed and there were good reasons, just as we have what we think are good reasons for doing what we do now. So that's what happened with Mary. I hope her life was happy, or I can't imagine that she would ever be able to forget what happened, but I hope she found some peace. I hope she found some happiness with her second marriage and her second family. Look to Mary Breach. There's no mention of what happened to her brother, otto Brant. I don't know. Still looking. Unfortunately, otto Brant is one of those fairly common names and there are a lot of them. There were a lot of them living in Chicago at the time, so I have to go back and just check out and see if I can find anything on Otto.
Natalie Zett:Robert Magnussen was also mentioned in the Day Book article and Robert stayed in Chicago. He continued working as a woodworker for Western Electric and there he retired In 1917, he also remarried this was another one of his country people from Sweden and he died in Chicago in 1968 and he outlived his second wife as well. In his obit only the second family was mentioned, no mention of his first family and his surviving the Eastland. Here's an interesting story Robert with his second marriage to Ingrid. They had two daughters, one of whom graduated from university, and this daughter had her reception at the Quadrangle Club in Chicago. That's the very same Quadrangle Club where another Eastland disaster survivor, Katherine MacIntyre. Do you remember her from the last episode? Well, catherine worked there and managed the Quadrangle Club for years. Coincidence time right.
Natalie Zett:Here's Robert's obituary from the Chicago Tribune, 17 July 1968. Robert E Ed Magnussen, beloved husband of the late Ingrid, dear father of Bernice and Florence, (Donald) McLeod, grandfather of Laura and Scott McLeod, member of the Telephone Pioneers of America service, Thursday July 18 to 30 pm at Matt's Funeral Home, 3440 North Central Avenue. Internment at Rose Hill Cemetery. As with Mary Breitch's obituary, again we have no mention of the Eastland disaster and no mention of the first family. I'm reminding you again that this was a different time. People handled stress and grief and trauma very differently. It affected them. Of course, I'm positive of it because we're human, it affects us all, but the way it plays out and the way it's demonstrated, that's what changes depending on the time, the context and so many variables.
Natalie Zett:Now I want to focus in on a couple of other people who are, by virtue of their work, ended up being involved with this. Richard Henry Little was the journalist who did the interview with Otto Brant, mary Breitch's brother, and Richard Henry Little unfolded the story of the loss of Mary's husband and five children on the Eastland. As a journalist, I feel a kinship with other journalists, particularly when they end up covering stories like these, so I wanted to know more about Richard Henry Little, and he indeed did have the proverbial story of life. Here's a quote about Robert Henry Little Life will have few charms for him until hell breaks loose again. That's what the pentagraph wrote of their favorite son, richard Henry Little, in 1920. Richard was still alive at that point, but if a gunshot went off, he's one of those people who ran toward it Trying to find out what was going on and report on it. There are people who seem to be wired toward this sort of thing, and I'm grateful for them. I'm not one of them, by the way, but deep respect. So in 1920, this is five years after the Eastland disaster, dick Little was an acclaimed newspaper war correspondent.
Natalie Zett:Thus the reference to hell and its breaking loose. Reporting from Cuba, the Philippines, china, germany and Russia, he was known as one of the most picturesque and popular figures of Chicago journalism for almost half a century. And it goes on to just talk about his accomplishments. He got a law degree from Illinois Wesleyan University back when that school had a law department, and he began his journalism career writing for the Daily Leader, a 19th century competitor to the pantograph. He was on his way to becoming a successful lawyer, perhaps with the detour or two into politics. But I guess lawyering didn't appeal. He needed a little more adventure.
Natalie Zett:Somebody quoted that dry and musty law books irritated his nerves. He could not abide by the limitations of a courtroom. The world beckoned. So the world for him was the world. He went everywhere, he did a lot and of course he was there early on in his career covering the Eastland disaster. And also he covered World War One from 1914 to 1918. I'm not sure when he was overseas, because he was obviously in Chicago in 1915. But in 1919, during the Russian Civil War. He sustained a broken left leg and head injuries from errant shrapnel while traveling with Udenich's anti-communist white forces battling the Reds in and around Petrograd, which is St Petersburg today, and he got better. He came back. He kept writing and he married late in life, retired in 1936. And he passed away 10 years later at the age of 76. Somebody wrote. Dick did not like placidity. He was a racehorse who was bored sick by being hitched to a buggy. Between wars. The local reporting was a dull field and Dick was a difficult child for the city editor to manage. But give him a war and he could come out in real fashion. That's Mr Richard Henry Little. He was there at the right time, the right place.
Natalie Zett:Another person to point out, though he wasn't directly involved with either Mary or Robert, is John Tinney McCutcheon. He was a political cartoonist and also war correspondent, combat artist and an author who won a Pulitzer Prize for his 1931 cartoon A wise economist asks a question. And so he did a lot of political cartooning. But he has a couple cartoons on the Eastland disaster and I will copy them with proper attribution and put them on my website so you can see them. He took no prisoners.
Natalie Zett:I can see he had no sympathy with greed.
Natalie Zett:We sometimes think that greed is a new thing, the product of our age, or something like that.
Natalie Zett:So that's also why it's good to look at history, because you see that this is a recurring theme that needs to be addressed and kept in check until it gets unleashed again. So it's always been with us and this is what this political cartoonist was pointing out. So I do hope that these characters sketches of these folks who, well, they survived the Eastland, but they certainly suffered from it, as well as those who were on the scene, as well as those who were able to use their talents and their abilities and their gifts for sharing with the world and with history, with those of us how many years later, what really happened there. I will conclude and have some new stories for you next week, but take care in the meantime and talk to you soon E-book, paperback and hardcover, because I owe people money and I'm just kidding about that. But the one thing I'm not kidding about is that this podcast and my book are dedicated to the memory of the 844 who died on the Eastland. Goodbye for now.