Flower in the River: A Family Tale Finally Told

When the River Took Over: Stories Nearly Left Behind

• Natalie Zett • Season 2 • Episode 91

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Episode Description:

Welcome to Episode 91 of Flower in the River! This week, we’re diving into two extraordinary stories from the Eastland disaster, showcasing why history is about people—not just numbers. 

We’ll explore the firsthand account of E.J. Smith, an engineer who witnessed the Eastland aftermath and painted a vivid picture of the chaos, heartbreak, and heroism. Then, we’ll meet Orvin T. Havey, a young survivor who saved lives in the midst of tragedy and went on to live a remarkable life full of creativity and generosity.

But that’s not all! I also share a special update about my recent appearance on Jim Harold’s Campfire podcast—a true honor for me. If you’re curious about the supernatural side of family history or just love a good goosebumps-inducing story, don’t miss it. (Link in the show notes!)

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

  • How E.J. Smith’s analytical mind and compassionate spirit captured the harrowing aftermath of the Eastland disaster.
  • The heroic actions of Orvin Havey, who saved multiple lives during the tragedy and carried that resolve into an extraordinary life of service and success.
  • Why numbers alone don’t tell the full story of the Eastland disaster—and why digging deeper matters.
  • A sneak peek into my recent appearance on Jim Harold’s Campfire podcast, where I shared personal stories that tie family history and the supernatural together in unexpected ways.

Why This Episode Matters:

History is more than just dates and statistics. It’s about people—their courage, their heartbreak, and their legacies. This week’s episode is a reminder that the Eastland disaster wasn’t just a moment in time; it was a series of deeply human stories that continue to resonate today.

Special Shoutout:

Thank you to Jim Harold for featuring me on his Campfire podcast! Sharing my stories there was such a meaningful experience, and I’m thrilled to connect with listeners who love diving into the unexplained. If you haven’t listened yet, you can catch my segment starting at 12:13—but don’t skip the other incredible stories on the episode!

Links:


Natalie Zett:

Hello, I'm Natalie Zett and welcome to Flower in the River. This podcast, inspired by my book of the same name, explores the 1915 Eastland disaster in Chicago and its enduring impact, particularly on my family's history. We'll explore the intertwining narratives of others impacted by this tragedy as well, and we'll dive into writing and genealogy and uncover the surprising supernatural elements that surface in family history research. Come along with me on this journey of discovery. Hey, this is Natalie and I want to welcome you to episode 91 of Flower in the River podcast. I want to start by sharing something really special.

Natalie Zett:

A couple of weeks ago, I had a chance to tell two very heartfelt and meaningful stories on Jim Harreld's Campfire podcast. If you don't know, jim Harreld Jim has been podcasting since the days of actual iPods yes, indeed, and that earned him the nickname of the Podfather. He approaches the paranormal and unexplained with respect and curiosity, and that's exactly what drew me to his work in the first place. Plus, he's a super nice guy. He really is. His paranormal podcast was actually the very first podcast I ever listened to. Podcast was actually the very first podcast I ever listened to. And his campfire show is where everyday people like me share their wild, unexplainable experiences. Some are over the top, some not, but it's all interesting and my segment on this particular show and I will leave a link in the show notes for you begins at around 12 minutes and 13 seconds into the podcast, but I highly recommend listening to the story right before mine. It's really incredible, and all of the stories after mine, because everyone is so compelling and Jim puts these stories together beautifully. And here's a little teaser of what I shared.

Natalie Zett:

Story number one was about my dad's signature song. My father was a performer on the radio in the late 1940s, early 1950s and he was part of the special services in the United States Army and he had his own radio show and his signature song was Lovesick Blues. So what are the odds of hearing a young man on a bicycle singing my late dad's favorite song? This was a Hank Williams classic at just the right moment. This actually happened about 10 years ago. And the second story happened only a few years ago and it's entitled A Band-Aid from my Mom. What do you do when you cut your hand in a rush and need a Band-Aid? In my case, in the dead of winter in Minnesota, a Band-Aid appeared just when I needed it the most and I really do think that that was thanks to a little nudge from my mom, who had just died two months prior and I was missing her terribly. So that's all I'll say about those stories, but I hope you listen to them and I hope they make you feel hopeful.

Natalie Zett:

And I think the thing that draws people to this topic, if you want to call it, that of the unexplained, of the supernatural, of the paranormal yes, some people enjoy being scared that's not my thing, by the way but it's wanting connection, it's wanting to know that something beyond us, people who have departed, still care about us and still can make contact. And the stories that I just shared with you, they do tie directly into my book, flower in the River, which explores the possibility of after-death communication and the threads of family history that connect us through time. In my case, I didn't even know I had this family history and that's what made everything just so remarkable for me and apparently for other people as well who've read the book. So my book is not about the Eastland disaster. Okay, the Eastland disaster is the event that sparks the story, that sets everything off in motion, but it's ultimately about how those who've passed still find ways to reach us and how their stories can shape our lives. And, similarly, my podcast has evolved into something more than just recounting that history. Each week, I share stories of those who were affected by the disaster. Many of these stories haven't been heard since they were first published over a century ago, and these untold stories resonate deeply with Hank Jones' idea in his book Psychic Roots that these individuals are waiting to be found, and I am more than honored and so happy to be part of that process because they deserve to have their stories told.

Natalie Zett:

So we're going to jump right in here. We've got a story for you. We always do, and what I'm going to do is share the newspaper article that I found, and, once again, this is one of those stories and one of those names that does not appear in any documentation, in any books or any of the websites that are about the Eastland disaster. I found several copies of this article in different newspapers, so it is out there, but you have to go looking. That's the thing. So, without further ado, let's get on to the article. The title of the article is Words Can't Paint Eastland Tragedy. It is by EJ Smith and it appeared in the weekly Solifone from Paragould, arkansas. Yes, that's the name and that is the location. I'll tell you a little bit more about that, but let's continue with the article.

Natalie Zett:

Paragouldian, back from Chicago, witnessed distressing scenes of great disaster From Tuesday's Daily Press. Quote I can't begin to give you were drowned with the overturning of the big excursion steamer Eastland, said E J Smith of Paragould, who returned this morning froma business trip to Chicago and other cities. I had left Chicago the day before for a visit to Hammond, indiana, and on Saturday afternoon, about six hours after the tragedy, I was returned to the city on a train. When I first learned of the disaster, I went toward the river but could not get within two blocks of it on account of throngs. Later I went to another point down the river and paid a man to take me in a motorboat to the scene of the tragedy. What I saw was so shocking that it benumbed and almost paralyzed the senses.

Natalie Zett:

Divers were busily engaged, going down under the overturned vessel, bringing up scores of bodies. Some were covered with mud, others were lacerated and their features smeared with blood. As soon as the bodies were recovered, they were taken to temporary morgues and washed and embalmed. I did not remain long at this gruesome place, so sickening were the scenes. The Eastland was lying on its side, with the pilot house toward midstream. The hull of the boat was partly submerged, but enough of it protruded to give one a good idea of its size. Apparently it was 150 feet long and the hull was about 25 feet deep. The streets were a solid mass of sorrowing humanity. People were crying and moaning and pleading to know if bodies of loved ones had been found. Hundreds of policemen were engaged in keeping the crowds back so as not to interfere with the work of recovering the bodies. Fifty telephones had been installed along the dock to answer inquiries. All were referred to the armory that had been converted into a temporary morgue. End quote.

Natalie Zett:

Mr Smith says the result of the investigations made prior to the time he left Chicago Sunday night showed conclusively that the operators of the vessel were to blame for the disaster. Anticipating a large crowd of excursionists, the captain had ordered the water ballast pumped out so the boat would hold the excess weight of human freight. This fact, combined with the faulty construction of the hull, is responsible for the boat careening. Just prior to the accident, two motorboats were observed running a race up the river and nearly everybody on board the Eastland ran to the river side of the vessel to see the race. The boat was observed to rock precipitably and a warning was given, but before the crowd could leave the side of the boat, it turned on its side, spilling more than 2,000 people into the water. The river at that point is not more than 150 feet wide, said Mr Smith, and it looks like hundreds of people could have escaped death. But the suddenness of the plunge and the excitement incident to the disaster made it impossible for many to use cool judgment. The Chicago papers are full of heroic deeds performed by men and boys in rescuing several score of people and of article. Thank you, how's that for a remarkable story. And again I feel very fortunate to have uncovered it because once again it gives you yet another angle of what this event was like.

Natalie Zett:

And this is somebody who wasn't part of. He wasn't on the Eastland but he just happened to be in Chicago during that time. And let me tell you a little bit about EJ Smith. Because his last name is Smith and because I didn't know his first name, it was a bit of a challenge to find out information about him. But EJ Smith was an engineer and you can probably tell that from the way he described the post-Eastland disaster. He was born in New York and he seemed to live a life marked by innovation, public service and survival. At that point his work brought him to Chicago, where he happened to be when the Eastland capsized in 1915, as we just heard and he obviously was deeply affected by the disaster, and he provided a poignant commentary on the event, blending his scientific analysis of the ship's failure with a heartfelt account of the human chaos he witnessed as survivors and victims were pulled from the river. Here's some backstory about EJ Smith.

Natalie Zett:

By 1913, smith had settled in Paragould, arkansas, where he became part of the local paving commission movement. We'll talk about that. This was an effort to modernize infrastructure by paving streets and improving road conditions. His engineering background likely made him an asset to these civic improvements, which were part of the broader quote-unquote good roads movement sweeping the nation at this time. Remember, automobiles were still new at the turn of the 20th century and the roads weren't quite ready for them. So he was in Chicago in 1915, and then he returns home. Then in 1916, and then he returns home. Then, in 1916, tragedy struck the Smith household when a fire broke out at their home, reportedly caused by a coal stove left burning in the bathroom. This was how they used to heat homes back then, by the way. So Smith, his wife, their two children and two boarders lived through what must have been a harrowing experience, though no further details about the aftermath have surfaced. By 1928, smith was recorded as being ill at his home at 600 South 6th Street in Paragould, but after that our trail grows cold. His later life and ultimate fate remain a mystery for the moment. But his legacy lives on through his contributions to his community and his vivid eyewitness account of the Eastland disaster. And that's a moment that captured both his analytical mind and compassionate spirit. And before we leave him and go on to our next person, I want to tell you about the history of this paving commission.

Natalie Zett:

In the early 20th century, arkansas faced significant challenges with its road infrastructure. The state's road system was underdeveloped, with many roads being little more than dirt paths, making travel difficult, especially during adverse weather conditions. This lack of reliable roads hindered economic growth and connectivity within the state. Recognizing the need for improvement, local communities began to take action. The need for improvement local communities began to take action. The city initiated efforts to pave its streets and, by 1912, part of Paragould's streets were paved. So I point this out because this was our history as well. None of us can remember a time where there weren't paved roads, but we can incorrectly assume that they were always there. No, they weren't. So his life gives us a little bird's eye view into what that was all about. And the local initiatives were part of a broader movement across Arkansas to improve road conditions. The state established the Arkansas Highway Commission in 1913 to organize and oversee road development. So now it's time to move on to our next person.

Natalie Zett:

I'd like to introduce you to Orvin T Havey. This article is from the Stoughton Daily Courier, and Stoughton is in Wisconsin. The date of the article is July 27, 1915. Title Orvin Havey Writes of Eastland Tragedy. Says he was in lower part but had no difficulty escaping. By permission of Nicholas Havey, son of Mr and Mrs Lighting Havey of our city, we publish the following letter that he received this morning from his brother Orvin, who was one of the survivors of the terrible Eastland disaster in Chicago last Saturday morning. Chicago, illinois, sunday. Dear brother, I hope you people got my telegram yesterday. I sent it as soon as I got home. I tell you I am mighty glad that you were not here.

Natalie Zett:

It was one of the most terrible experiences I ever had in my life. I was in the bottom of the boat at the time it went down, but while hundreds of people were drowning beside me, I kept my mind with me and did not have a bit of trouble saving myself. The first man I saved was Mr Goyette. After he got his leg broken or fractured. I went back and saved at least a dozen people. The place where the steamship sank the water was about 20 feet deep, but the trouble was the boat tipped over and trapped all the people in there. I got a woman out that was scalded up to the waist from the hot water and the steam from the boilers. The worst of all sights I saw was after I pulled a man up on top of the boat and really had him saved. He went to swim to land, but just as he dived he slipped on the slimy bottom of the boat and dived into one of the propellers which was still turning and literally chewed up.

Natalie Zett:

We found Charlie about two hours after the boat had sank. He had been caught in one of the rooms of the boat and was drowned right there without any chance of saving himself. The body will be sent to Vermont tomorrow. This certainly is one of the saddest things I have ever experienced. Last night I saw over 1,500 dead people right in one room or morgue. You don't realize how bad it is until you can see it. But thank God you can't. I got through the whole thing without even a scratch, but if I ever learned to swim, I did.

Natalie Zett:

Yesterday we had to knock people senseless in order to make them be quiet so as to bring them out. Otherwise they would get a hold of you and then you could not do anything with them. I am mightily glad I did not have any relatives on the boat. May could not get off to go, so now we are thanking God she didn't. Joe Seapine drowned with Charlie. Poor Charlie. The people are almost insane here. I telegraphed Melinda last night also and told her I was safe. Well, I will send you papers of it. Lovingly, orvin.

Natalie Zett:

Before we go any further, I wanted to talk about some of the names that Orvin mentioned in his letter. I'm not sure who Joe Supine or Supine was. I can't find any name close to that in any of the Eastland records, but that doesn't mean it's not accurate. It's just that I haven't been looking in the places where I would find it, so I'll keep looking for that. However, nicholas Havey was Orvin's brother and he also worked for Western Electric. I'm not sure why he wasn't in Chicago for the picnic, but I bet he was grateful.

Natalie Zett:

And the Goyette family that Orvin mentioned Mr Goyette and Charlie Goyette. I've shared brief accounts of the Goyette family in another episode, but Mr Goyette was probably George Goyette and he was a foreman or supervisor at Western Electric. He survived the Eastland disaster along with two of his sons, lyle and Frank. However, the youngest son, charlie, who Orvin mentioned, died on the Eastland. I'm not sure who May was that he mentioned, but he mentioned Melinda. That was his sister. Before Melinda passed away in 1938, she was the National Director of the American Red Cross Public Health Nursing Service and World War I nurse heroine. She's buried in Arlington National Cemetery and she was internationally known for her public health work. This is quite the family, by the way, and we're going to learn more about them.

Natalie Zett:

So we will continue with the story of Orvin T Havey, a man who survived the chaos of the disaster, and Orvin went on to live an extraordinary life. His story is more than just a snapshot of survival. It's a testament to fortitude, determination and unexpected ways history affects and connects us. Orvin was just 21 years old when he boarded the Eastland on that fateful day in 1915. So, in summary, orvin had been in the lower part of the boat when it capsized. So, amid the panic and chaos of hundreds drowning around him, he somehow managed to keep his wits about him and escape. But he didn't stop there. Orvin sprang into action, saving at least a dozen people, including a man with a broken leg, mr Goyette. He also described the heartbreak of pulling a man onto the hull only to watch him slip on the slick surface and meet a tragic end in the propellers. In his letter, as you listened, orvin did not shy away from the grim realities of the disaster. He recounted seeing over 1,500 bodies laid out in the makeshift morgue and admitted to doing the unthinkable knocking panicked survivors unconscious to keep them from pulling rescuers under. It was an experience that left him deeply shaken, but his words capture not just the horror of that day but his strength and determination to help others even in the most desperate of circumstances. Orvin's story didn't end with the Eastland. Here's what happened afterward. He went on to serve in World War I stationed in Vittel, france, with Base Hospital Unit no 36, alongside his sister, melinda, a Red Cross nurse. So two siblings in World War I, brother and sister.

Natalie Zett:

After the war, orvin returned home to Wisconsin where he built an extraordinary legacy. He became a well-known electrical contractor and the owner of the Heavey Electric Company, which he ran for more than 50 years, retiring in 1973. A man of many talents, orvin wasn't just a businessman. He was deeply engaged in his community. He chaired Dane County's Red Cross, organizing its first blood drive, and was a former charter director of the Park Bank of Madison. He even had a unique hobby as the owner of a championship class A ice boat, the Mary B. Orvin was alsoa proud member of countless civic and professional organizations, including the Madison Euro Club, madison Elks Club and the National Electrical Contractors Association. He spent his life connected to people and causes that mattered, always finding ways to give back.

Natalie Zett:

Yet through all his accomplishments, orvin's ties to the Eastland disaster likely stayed with him. It's easy to see the echoes of that day in his life, of perseverance and leadership, qualities that may have been forged in that crucible of survival. His letter and his obituary taken together reveal a man who lived not just to move forward but to lift others up along the way. Orvin Havey passed away in 1978 at the age of 83. He left behind quite the legacy of tenacity, innovation and kindness, a life lived with the same grit he showed on that tragic day in 1915. In 1915. His story reminds us of the profound humanity that can emerge even from the darkest moments of history.

Natalie Zett:

Well, here's some late-breaking, very good news for you. When I began my research for this particular episode as I do, I start that at the beginning of a week I got lucky. I found a really intriguing article about Orvin Havey. I should say I came across what appeared to be snippets from a very intriguing article about Orvin Havey, because the article didn't quite hang together and there were no source citations. And here's the thing If a source isn't cited, I'm not going to repeat it. Why? Because perpetuating something without proof isn't just bad practice for a genealogist. I wouldn't have been able to get away with that for a 10th grade term paper. Yes, apparently I'm still being haunted by the ghost of my 10th grade English teacher these many years later. But something told me to keep searching. So I kept digging and guess what I actually found the original article that was likely the source for that unsighted piece. So it all started to click. Does that make sense? It was like solving a little mystery and this is so typical of this podcast anyway but it felt so satisfying to be able to finally put those pieces together, to have the source of the original document, pieces together, to have the source of the original document and to be able to share this with you because it fills out another dimension of Orvin Havey's life and the Eastland disaster. It's from a website at least I found it on a website called Big Ten Central Com. I'm not sure if it was originally published here, but the title of the article is An Historic Madison Ice Boat May Race. Again, it was by Barry Adams and it was published on March 6, 2016, and it was updated July 4, 2022. And the Madison that they're referring to in this article is Madison, wisconsin Town of Westport.

Natalie Zett:

When the Mary Bee skimmed across the ice of lakes Monona and Mendota in the early 1950s, she shared her exploits in the Wisconsin State Journal sports pages with the University of Wisconsin boxing team, three-time NCAA champion Don Gehrman's ability to run the mile for the Badgers and basketball games at Central High School. The 39-foot-long ice boat could fly across frozen waters at nearly 100 miles per hour, won numerous prestigious regattas in the heyday of the sport and is a quintessential part of Madison's history and our connection to water even in the depths of winter. The Mary Bee, made with Sitka spruce, was a rock star before the arrival of Chuck Berry and Elvis Presley, but has come out of retirement after nearly 15 years of storage in a Waukesha County barn. This boat made an appearance at the Frozen Assets Festival in front of the Edgewater Hotel last month on Lake Mendota and a few weeks later even sailed for a bit on Lake Monona. The plan is to get her back in the game to compete not only on home ice but on Lakes, winnebago, big Green, geneva and beyond. Quote it's a very important, prominent part of the ice boating history of Madison and this boat wound up being on top of the heap until the smaller boats came in, which were smaller and used modern materials, said Jerry Simon, an ice boat builder who has been involved with the sport for nearly 60 years. This was the best of the big boats. There are few boats of Mary B's size that still compete.

Natalie Zett:

The racing circuits primarily consist of smaller single-sail boats that hold one person. They include 23-foot-long renegades that feature 18-foot-tall masts and 67 square feet of sail. Skeeters are 30 feet long with 28-foot-tall masts and 75 square feet of sail. The Mary Bee, considered a stern-steerer boat, has a 40-foot-tall mast that holds 360 square feet of sail. She is a yacht among skiffs and a mobile, historic and highly decorated treasure of the hard water.

Natalie Zett:

And now the Four Lakes Ice Yacht Club in Madison is working on a plan to raise $40,000 to make the boat race-ready. The costs include about $5,000 in restoration work, the purchase of a $12,000 enclosed trailer in which to store and transport the boat and another $15,000 to buy the ice boat from Don Anderson, owner of the Boathouse of Madison, who rescued the ice boat from storage. Quote it was in a pretty dilapidated building but it was really in good shape, said club member Pete Faurbach, whose family has been involved with the sport since the early 1900s. There were some rodents that got in and made a nest in one of the sails, so it's not pretty, but we can get those back into pretty good shape. The wood was fantastic, but we can get those back into pretty good shape. The wood was fantastic and so is the boat's history.

Natalie Zett:

It was in the late 1940s that OT Havey, a Madison electrician, commissioned Frank Tetzloff and Carl Bernard to build an ice boat that he would name after his wife. But the boat would never have been built had Havey not learned how to swim in Token Creek near the family farm in the town of Windsor. After graduating from DeForest High School, havey got a job as an apprentice wireman for the Western Electric Company in Chicago In 1915, the company's annual picnic was scheduled to be held in Michigan City, indiana. So the company chartered five steamer ships to transport 7,000 employees and their families. Down was overloaded with 2,500 people. The steamer capsized in the river and 800 people died. Havey saved a four-year-old girl before being picked up by a tugboat. His future wife, mary, also an employee of the company but who had not yet met OT watched the tragedy unfold from shore. Quote it was the worst mess you ever saw, mary Havey told the State Journal in 1975. Ot later moved to Detroit before serving in World War I. After the war he returned to Madison where he was the longtime owner of the OT Havy Electric Company. His success in electrical work allowed him to spare no expense on the $9,000 ice boat.

Natalie Zett:

Tetzloff was a master carpenter who helped translate some of Frank Lloyd Wright's plans for the construction of the Unitarian Meeting House on University Bay Drive that was completed in 1951. Bernard grew up on Gorham Street along Lake Mendota, where his grandfather, who came to Madison in 1837 and had been building ice boats since the 1850s, started a boat livery business in 1874. The Bernard Boat Livery offered tours of Lake Mendota aboard boats that could hold up to 100 people. The livery also built and rented boats during open water and in 1940 had a fleet of 27 ice boats that it rented during the winter. Despite the qualifications of Carl Bernard and Tetzloff, who about 10 years earlier had built another well-known ice boat, the Fritz, it took the men three years to build the Mary B. Their workspace was the Bernard Boathouse that is now part of James Madison Park Park.

Natalie Zett:

Deb Whitehorse, whose father built ice boats in the basement of their Monona home, is a member of the Four Lakes Ice Yacht Club where she organizes races and events and writes about the sports history. She said wood for the Mary Bee was purchased by Tetzloff at the nearby Marling Lumber Company. He picked out all the best wood from a carload of Sitka and you can see that now in the care he took. Whitehorse said as she looked over the Mary Bee there's just so much Madison in this boat. Ot Havey didn't race the boat. He left that up to skippers Carl Bernard and later James Payton. The duo combined to win 13 major regattas between 1949 and 1964. It won the Randolph-Hurst Cup four times in the 1950s. The Fritz handled the light, wind and the troublesome ice the way Fred Astaire handles a slippery dance floor.

Natalie Zett:

Mccormick wrote. Owner OT Havey's Mary B was as pretty as a girl in her first formal and skipper Carl Bernard sailed her with the calm assurance of a fellow who knew he had the best date at the party. The Mary B last raced in 1992 and in 2000 was on display at the Strictly Sailboats show in Chicago before being wrapped in canvas tarps and going into storage. The boat's hull weighs 600 pounds and her 26-foot runner plank, which balances the boat, is 400 pounds. But if the creation of a non-profit is successful, money is raised and restoration completed, the Mary B may once again vie for a trophy Quote.

Natalie Zett:

This is probably one of the most famous ice boats that nobody knows about. Anderson said it's just been sitting in storage for years. There's a lot of history there, but now we want to win races and be competitive. Be competitive how did you like that article? I mean, what a connection the Eastland connected to this person, ot Havey, and his creation of an ice boat. I mean, what a concept. Anyway, I want to pause for a moment and bring newer listeners up to speed.

Natalie Zett:

I've done a number of podcasts where I talk about the Eastland fatality numbers and I'll share with you what I have learned so far and this is always subject to change, by the way. The number of Eastland victims has taken on a life of its own throughout the years and a lot of wildly different numbers have been thrown around 1,500 in this recent newspaper, clipping 800, 900, then we have 835, we have 812, etc. These numbers seem to settle into specific totals, though based on the decade, but during this past year where I've gone deep into the history of the people of the Eastland Disaster, that deep historical work and research that I have done has caused me to question nearly everything about what has been promoted as the Eastland disaster history, and there were a couple of stories that I uncovered throughout the course of my research for this podcast that have ended up being gifts. I've come across at least two cases, and I bet there are more of individuals who survived in the Chicago River. They were rescued but they never recovered. These were people who became very ill, suffered for years and eventually passed away. Their families attributed their sickness and death to being in the Chicago River on July 24, 1915. Are they included in the count? I'm not sure how to answer that question, but I'm guessing that it depends on who is doing the count, who is promoting certain numbers. So I'm doing this because of all of our new listeners.

Natalie Zett:

So thank you longtime listeners for listening to this again. But the number stuff keeps coming up. People keep asking me and unless a miracle occurs I will never commit to a specific number because I do not think it is possible for establishing those numbers and because so much time has passed since the event. But I suppose that it all depends on your point of view. For me, the Eastland disaster, because it is so personal and because it affected my family and other families, I lead off with the stories of the people, all of the people who were affected. Others find value in leading off with numbers. For me, as much as I love statistics in college, it's not about the numbers, it's always about the people. So that's it for this week and I have a lot more stories for you next week.

Natalie Zett:

Thank you again for joining me. Longtime listeners, thanks for coming back, new listeners welcome, and I would encourage you to listen to some of the older episodes to get a feel for the differences amongst all the people who were affected by the Eastland disaster, because even if you weren't affected, you probably will see your family in some of those stories. Okay, have a good one. Talk to you later. Hey, that's it for this episode and thanks for coming along for the ride. Please subscribe or follow so you can keep up with all the episodes, and for more information, please go to my website, that's wwwflowerintherivercom. I hope you'll consider buying my book, available as audiobook, ebook, paperback and hardcover, because I still owe people money and that's my running joke. But the one thing I'm serious about is that this podcast and my book are dedicated to the memory of all who experienced the Eastland disaster of 1915. Goodbye for now.

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